#24 - When Faith Meets OCD

0:06 I want to welcome you to this week's episode of Mind and Faith Matters, the podcast where we talk about things safely regarding mental health, faith, and all the in -between. I'm really excited today because Karen Ganon is my special guest, and she's decided to join us to talk about her faith, her journey, and we're going to also talk about obsessive -compulsive disorder today. And so I'm excited. that we can share this episode and her insights and her journey with you today. So welcome, Karen. I'm glad you're here today. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me this opportunity.

0:48 I'm very excited. Well, Karen and I met on a Christian podcasters online Facebook group, in essence, and then we've talked and got to know a little bit about each other. Today, as I say, we're going to talk about Obsessive -Compulsive Disorders and the related things that go along with that. But Karen is a believer. I'm going to ask her to share who is Karen, what are you doing now, what have you done over the last... You can go back as far as you want. Just introduce yourself a little bit and then I'm going to talk about... what we mean when we say obsessive compulsive disorders clinically and then we're going to talk about your life and how that really I don't even want to say affected your life because maybe it hasn't affected your life but how you navigate your life with it. So welcome again. Like Cory said my name is Karen Gannon. I think I'll just start a little bit. I was the middle child of a middle class family. And one thing I usually start with, because I think it was the point that I... Well, it was the point that I decided that life wasn't safe and I became a major worrywart.

2:16 I mean, my family has always said I was a worrywart since I was a child. When I was seven, my youngest brother, Tom, who I loved dearly and would wake up... When he'd wake up early in the morning on Saturday I'd take him downstairs and feed him breakfast and put the cartoons on so that my parents could sleep longer He caught leukemia and in those days There was there was no cure at all. So he died when he was four and I was seven and There was no counseling in those days, you know, we're talking late 50s early 60s nobody got counseling and Everyone in my family just had to deal with it how we dealt with it within ourselves. We didn't even really talk about him much my mom has picture up in the living room and You know, but I that was when I realized life wasn't safe I mean to me old people died kids didn't die, you know, we knew he was sick the siblings but so I think was the beginning of just this whole thing And I don't know how much of an intro you want because I know you want to to tell about what OCD is but I think my clinical When I became clinically Diagnosed or whatever with OCD I was in my 20s I've struggled

3:48 with OCD for over 40 years varying degrees In my 30s and 40s, I went through a lot of stressors, huge amount of stressors, and I think that really brought it out so much more until I just thought I was crazy. I didn't know what to do with myself. I didn't know it was OCD. I didn't know anything about OCD. And I just, like I said, I was a Christian already. I became a Christian when I was 25. Okay. Sorry, go ahead. No, you go ahead. Well, I was going to say, we'll get into what you've done to manage and how your faith has impacted your life working with OCD, but I want to unpack that a little bit more because I said you're also a believer. I just want to put it out there that you've had faith for Generally as long as you've had your diagnosis fair to say or yes Yes, I was always a worrywart, you know from childhood, but Yes when OCD really kicked in it was soon after I became a believer and I think I Think that part of that might be That God had to unpack a lot of things and so some stressors

5:20 came at me kind of fast When I was a pretty new Christian I was raised in a very well I was raised in the Catholic Church and no mention of grace at all it was all like okay you try to be good and be good enough to get to heaven and there was a lot especially in those days of talk about hell and and if you made a a sin that couldn't be forgiven and that kind of stuff so I grew up with that and i think when i became a believer i had to god almost had to bring me to empty me like he does i think a lot of people and then hold me back up again so a lot of this started when i was a new christian um the stressors that brought this all to a head and i had to i had to just rely on him because they're again in those days you I mean you could have counseling by the time I was in my 20s and stuff but I don't know I don't know if OCD was really um well known and counselors knew what to do with it um the few that I tried never mentioned OCD I I think I discovered that on my own what it was um through a book I read that God gave to me obviously because No one mentioned it to me, even though I would tell them stuff about, you know, myself. But

6:52 I probably hid a lot of stuff too, you know, because it's so embarrassing and it's, you know, it's crazy. Some of the things you think and do, you know, it's crazy. And it's embarrassing to tell people, even counselors. And you are kind of afraid that they will believe some of the things like if, if you fear harming someone or something, which is a very common. Yes, OCD then are they gonna believe that and and you know report me or something. I mean, it's just crazy. I know I'm sorry I need to I need to be a better host towards my guess is what I need to do and let you finish your thought No, I like when you cut in because I can my mind can go different places. I can get off well before before I actually talk about the diagnosis and like clinically I want to just say it's so interesting that you said that because on other episodes when we're not talking about OCD and we're just talking about what it is to be a believer so many people hide what they're going through and I think in western culture in the US it becomes challenging sometimes to find trusted people that you can share who you really are what you're really thinking whether it's this thought or of that's repetitive and compulsive and then you have a compulsion to do something or if it's just I'm supposed to be this way but I'm thinking that way so I think this applies what we're talking

8:24 about today applies more broadly than we might imagine beyond OCD so I think we can help those who don't have OCD just by talking in this very candid open way about your journey so thank you again for that well you're welcome and even when I was you know a new believer the church I was in uh it was a Baptist church and I'm not that I'm sure that matters but they didn't talk about mental health from the pulpit at all in those days and it was kind of it definitely I think was a stigma you know I mean you could be physically Have some physical problem and everyone pray and yes and yes but if I started telling the general public some of the thoughts that went through my head and You know my struggles they I don't know what other Christians would have You know, I told my very closest friends that I could trust and that is it Yeah Yeah Right.

9:26 It's pretty wild. I'm gonna actually read the definition out of the the clinical manual that where practitioners use. And when we talk about diagnoses, it's not to label someone because a lot of times people get afraid of labels. What Karen and I had talked about off air when we met and discussed things, a diagnosis really just helps someone to know I'm not alone in what I'm going through. Someone else has been here and someone else There's a name for what I'm going through and as mental health has caught up I'm not I might be with you that it may be that it's still a little bit stigmatized a little bit and it's better church, you know within churches and stuff and sometimes people over generalize and say Well, if you have something wrong mentally with you, you just need to pray harder. Right and to me that goes back to When I was a kid and someone might see me walking with my leg braces and say Well, if you have more faith, you could be healed and I'm like, wait, is that is that a thing like and so the point of all that to me is we do not We really Aren't quite where we need to be and that's why my podcast is Here to humbly try to help bridge that gap between mental health and faith OCD, for short,

10:57 obsessive -compulsive disorder, is a diagnosis where there's the presence of either obsessions or compulsions to do something, take an action, or both. The first part of it is you either have a recurrent and persistent thought pattern, these urges, or maybe it's images that people experience. And sometimes during disturbance, it's intrusive, unwanted, and really in a lot of individuals, most individuals, it says it causes marked anxiety or distress. So in other words, it is accompanied by stress. And the other part is the individual attempts to ignore or suppress the thoughts, urges, and images. or to neutralize them with some thought or action and that action is like performing a compulsion and there's more to it but there's this idea that it's just germaphobes you know or there's just one type of OCD and really the compulsions are defined by these repetitious behaviors. So it could be hand washing, ordering things and checking that they're in the right

12:27 order. In some cases, it's praying, counting or repeating words silently a lot. And that person feels driven to perform that and it's in response to this obsessive thought. And there might be rules that that person applies to it rigidly. And so that's what we're talking about. And I'm going to let you share your type of OCD, but I want to just give some general types of obsessions that are out there, right? There's this intense fear of germs and dirt and contamination. So the contamination obsession. There's As I said, symmetry and ordering things. I have to have this and my shoes have to be this way and the laces have to be tied this way and they have to be shined this many times and we have to do that. Then there's harm obsessions as Karen spoke about. Some people have religious obsessions where they're preoccupied with their religious beliefs to the point where it's affecting their activities of daily living and it's interruptive.

13:42 disruptive to their lives there are sexual obsessions there are dysmorphic body dysmorphic like seeing yourself and your parents as being flawed and so some people and you know you've seen people that want to get cosmetic procedures to the point where they don't look like themselves anymore and that could be symptomatic of OCD now I'm not a surgeon and I'm not the type of doctor that looks at is someone safe to have this surgical procedure that's not my training or background but OCD can produce ticks in people these involuntary movements involuntary gestures and then some people have OCD that's Focus on their physical symptoms or their sensations that they're feeling in their body the pain and sometimes it's illness But other times it's people get really focused on how their body is feeling and their sensory stuff Somatic somatic is what that's called and then unfortunately people can become obsessed and have fears of about romantic relationships and I've seen very protective people, and I want to dispel something here. There are all of us,

15:14 all of us have some form of thought patterns, and sometimes we get focused on patterns. When you have a clinical diagnosis of OCD, some people say, oh, I'm so OCD, and they might not actually be OCD, but what we're talking about today isn't... diagnosing Karen, that's not my job, that's not what we're talking about. We're just wanting to lay it all out there that you might have some tendencies and not have the diagnosis, or you might be listening today and have this diagnosis. But these obsessions and compulsions, the point of them is to reduce or prevent the distress that's going on. Like, it's a trigger in the body and the mind is saying, hey, we have to do this thing here. I'm not talking about split personalities when I talk in the plural, but I am saying, I need to do this thing to prevent the stress or prevent this dreaded situation or event from actually happening. And it's about the amount of time that a person spends on it.

16:20 Diagnostically, if it takes over more than one hour of a day, that tends to lead more towards that diagnosis. We also want to be certain that it's not based on other generalized anxiety disorder or a preoccupation with just being body dysmorphic. They're saying, I'm too fat, I'm too skinny, I'm too this, I'm too that. And so sometimes when what's going on can be better explained by another diagnosis, the other diagnosis will be what's in place. But lot of people who have OCD, they definitely fit into the patterns of what I'm talking about. So Karen, thanks for sharing your whatever you feel comfortable with, but how has OCD shown up in your life in addition to what you've said? Like what does it look like for you? Can I first tell you about that book and how I realized that's what I had because what you said was very important when I had that label You remember I said I just thought it was crazy. I didn't know why my own brain was like my enemy Why would I do that to me? You know, I was held hostage by my own brain. That's what it felt like and God brought to me I saw an article in the newspaper about a book it was written by Jeff Bell and this was many years ago and

17:55 when it described the book a little bit I thought okay I'm gonna get this book so I ordered the book and I was in the second chapter even in the first chapter when I started to get suspicious by the second chapter I was like this is me this is me I I recognized it totally and that's when I knew and that's when went I had that label and that made me feel, yes, I'm not alone. This is a thing. I'm not just crazy. This is a thing that people have. And then I could look into it and research and get help for it and things like that. But yeah, it was through a book and he I could so relate. He was he had a yacht or a small boat that he would take his friends out on the weekend. And one day he took his friends out and when they were backing up from the slip a wave or something wake from another boat going by hit their boat and it kind of tilted it over and Close to the boat next to him and the slip next to him and he thought did I hear a sound?

19:06 Did I did I hit that boat? Did I hear a sound and? That a simple thing was his trigger for years. Wow. Years of stress and I mean he became his job became in jeopardy. He seems like he had a very supportive wife that really you know was patient with him because it's hard to be patient with people with OCD because we need encouragement all the time and to people to tell us you're okay and blah blah blah. Well he went for years he would go back almost every day at least for a year and look at the boat next to him see if there was any scratch. The other people on his friends would say oh it was nothing one said I might have heard something the other said no I didn't hear anything and it just caught in his head and that's what happens with OCD.

19:55 It's like this rut that it just goes round and round and you can't get it out at least I didn't know how and he didn't know how either. and he would go back and check it and check it every day and take pictures of it and he'd look on his boat around to see if there was any scratches and he even uh one day happened to he arranged it meet one of the people on that boat the other boat and so he told him the story and the guy was like okay yeah And that's how people respond. It's like, all right. The other boat was a wreck anyway. It wasn't even a really nice boat or anything. But he could not get it out. And so he wrote a whole book about that. You think, how can you write a whole book about that? Well, yeah. And so I looked him up. I have a second screen over here. If you see me playing, I'm totally listening. Yeah, no, no. I figured that's what you were doing. I see this, when in doubt, make believe. And that's an OCD inspired approach to living with uncertainty by Jeff Bell. And then there's this other book, rewind, replay, repeat. Repeat. So I'm going to drop that as a resource on the companion guide on the website.

21:15 So thank you for bringing that up. That can that can help. I always love helping people. Yeah. He still works with OCD because I saw recently more he's written more books and everything but it was that rewind replay You know and the title caught me and that's why I was like Huh, and that's why I ordered the book, you know because it is like a replay replay replay replay and you can't You can't get it out. I mean I was a teacher and so I could do my job. I love kids I could do my job and not think about it because it's a busy job and i'd get home and immediately it would start and this would go this could go till four in the morning i mean quite commonly you know i was awake until my body just shut down in pure exhaustion and then get up the next morning and go to work again i mean it's just it's brutal i can't tell you how brutal it is um yeah yeah yeah you know i sometimes have some insomnia related to Thinking about the demands of my job or other things going on in my life and I can't even imagine that being on a repeat Because I do that one night and then I'm I'm toast for the rest of the week So I can't even imagine how exhausting that must have been that's why You know, I I don't know how I made it at that time until I Did then go on medicine which I was afraid to do because people with OCD are

22:46 pretty much afraid of everything And so it took me so long to go into medicine, but I would never go back. I'm on sertraline, only 50 milligrams. It's not that high. It's so loft. It's called sertraline and it improved my life like 85%. I stopped that like total craziness that just, you know, I still have the intrusive thoughts and stuff, but God has shown me many things of how to deal with it over the years. I mean, it's been a lot of years. So we want to talk about and I'm going to advocate with you that I'm not the guy, you know, I am an ordained pastor. I'm not actively pastoring a church, but I'm not that man of God and she's not that woman of God that's going to tell you, you just need to have more faith. Now, faith can help. Faith can do so many things to calm us and God's spirit in us can help and do wonders for us, but Medicine should not be stigmatized is one of the messages I want to get out today Sometimes people need it short -term sometimes they need it long -term and did you hear what she just said to my listeners?

24:03 85 % better. I mean that's That's remarkable and I know we're talking about just in general. She's not saying well I was 50 -50 you know parts of my life were better but it's substantially better just based on this idea that a medicine can help us. So we don't want to stigmatize someone taking medicine that's I want that to be clear. I'm so happy that you had that relief. Can you talk to me about Can I say one more thing about the medicine? I remember when I was you know being afraid to take it I had found out I had OCD and I'm like okay now what do I do? You know and my friends said you you've got to go on medicine and stuff and you know and they were praying for me and everything and one day it was like the Holy Spirit said you know because I always worried it was like the Bible says don't worry don't worry don't worry I'm like I'm always worrying huh what is this how can I stop I want to be obedient but I can't stop and then the Holy Spirit said to me one day the medicine is a way of obeying me because that will help you stop So it was a step of obedience, actually, for me to take the medicine. Yes, he says, don't worry. And this was a way I could handle that. So it was a step of obedience for me, absolutely. And I

25:35 am embarrassed to say even right after that, I didn't take it. It took a little more than that. I'm pretty, anyway. i'm in that club i'm in that club with you yeah so but the holy spirit was clear about that that it was a step of you know it was a step of obedience it would help me stop fearing which god tells us to do wow yeah that's great and let me ask what what are some other ways and then let's definitely talk about your faith and the lessons that you've learned over these years that maybe you could share with people I want to ask, what are some of the ways that you've struggled through it?

26:18 Like what has been your main thought patterns that maybe you've shared enough and that's, but if you care to share. I have some examples and stuff. Is it, you know, in my life, how my symptoms came out. I suppose a big part of my struggle is with scrupulosity, the religion and faith and being. when I became a Christian I did not come out of fear which I'm so thankful for because I was such a fearful person. I loved God from as soon as he called me and I knew he loved me and it was like a love thing not a fear thing when I came to him but then because of my background too and things I wanted to please him and it started to become It started into scrupulosity a little bit. You know, like how do I please him? How do I know this is pleasing to him? You know, did I tell this person the exact truth or did I exaggerate and should I call them and tell them that I exaggerated? You know, crazy things. One thing is another crazy example is I lived in Sacramento, the Bay Area in San Francisco is about three hours away. They have this big fire. when I was in my twenties that caused all this damage. And I thought, could I have started that fire? You know, it was all these things of, of sin. I want to please God. I don't want

27:49 to sin, you know? And so he had to work all that out of me and teach me grace and what he's really like, that he's not up here just waiting to, you know, because some of my background was very much taught, you know, I was taught that. So there was a lot of unlearning and learning to do but Just crazy stuff, you know, like thinking how could I have started that fire? Maybe I you know, I got rid of that motor oil not in such a good way and it got into No, it doesn't even make sense. And that's the problem. We know most people that have OCD know it's crazy that it doesn't make any logical sense but We have no other way to deal with it except for us obsessions I mean compulsions or you know keep going over and over it in my in my mind So I would think about that over and over trying to remember every detail could could I have started it blah blah?

28:47 Another thing is fear of harming others was a big one for me and you know that all I mean they all overlap anyway, you know so fear of harming others I had a Well, how old was he when I was, I don't know, a toddler at home. I was a single mom and I had a toddler at home and I got it in my head. The trigger, the thought was sleepwalking because I had sleptwalked a few times when I was a kid. And so I thought, oh no, what if I'm sleepwalking at night? Cause there's things you can't control. Lots of times it'll hit you at, you know, because you can't know, you know, what if I sleepwalk at night? I'd get in the car because I'd heard of people doing that and drove away and did something terrible to people. You know, very vague, just did something terrible and show my compulsion and leave my child alone at home who's a toddler. Show my compulsion with that was kind of two -pronged. I had a little notebook in my car that when I parked after work I would write the mileage down and then when I got out in the morning I would check the mileage and make sure it hadn't gone up. Another thing I did is put things in front of the front door, like bells that would ring and things that would knock over, that would wake me up in case I tried to get out. I think I even asked the neighbor across the street. I mean, you do really embarrassing things. I was so terrible. I think I asked the

30:17 neighbor across the street, did you ever see me go out in the middle of the night? He's like, what? Yeah. So those are some of the crazy things that I went through um praying okay so if I had an intense interest of thought during prayer I would think I had to start all over again this was just part of you know all these things they come and go most of them and it morphs into different things and changes uh according to you know what's going on in your life but there was a period of time oh my gosh I would be up late just doing that you know praying okay i had a thought that popped in okay i'm gonna start over again and that's so common with you know my research with ocd and stuff it's like some people think if they don't sit just right they don't walk just right it's all this just right stuff you know then i have to start all over again you know and the fear of harming others is a huge one because if you i mean especially you're a christian you love other people you know you don't want to cause harm and so It all gets So when you're talking about this kind of harm, you're not sometimes you talk about physical harm But also like emotional scars and hurting their feelings and those that kind of harm. Are you talking? Any kind of harm.

31:36 Yeah, okay Yeah, so you you replay things in your head all the time to make sure that you didn't you know You couldn't hurt somebody it didn't you know any and in any way hurt them in any way? but that's that's a real common kind of OCD the harming of others sure let's talk about grace and let's talk about the side that i think someone who's struggling i would i want to talk first about how has your faith helped you now someone that isn't a believer they might say what's she talking about this holy spirit prompted her to take the medicine Well, I assure you that the Bible says once we commit to following God in the sense of we acknowledge that we're imperfect, we have sinned, and we can come to Him because He has made it available. We can ask Him for forgiveness because of what Jesus had done on the cross. So I just did another episode that dropped about a fresh start with God. So if you're questioning, we don't have to get into the salvation message, but we can say if someone has OCD and they're not a believer, so they're not thinking, that can help me, how has your faith helped you? And that's a broad

33:07 area, so you can talk about anything you want. Yeah, oh wow. I doubt I would have made it without my faith. I probably wouldn't have taken the medicine I just my blood pressure was so high because of the stress and everything before I went on the medicine and then when I went on medicine I got to go off of my blood pressure pills because it was you know the stress but God did so much like I said he almost like he he had to bring me to the bottom and then built me up what do you think what I think he first had to teach me was to trust to listen to trust the voice of the Holy Spirit like first learn to okay is That is the voice of the Holy Spirit learn what it sounded like to me what it was how he Interacted with me and to trust that voice because It was the whole not trusting that I wouldn't do something wrong But now I trust the Holy Spirit he's the one that convicts us he's gonna tell me if i have you know if there's something i need to apologize for or whatever and other than that you know i i just bring the things to him if i love the verse about um i will show you the way out in your temptation you know if you're tempted Come to me and I will show you

34:37 ask ask for the way out and I would give it to you That was huge to me years and years ago He showed me that one and really put it in my mind and heart because then I would start okay when I'm triggered by something I Ask, okay. What's the way out? I can tell right away my you know blood pressure is going up and I can feel it in myself Okay, this has triggered me. It's starting to get in my head. What's my way out? And to me a lot of times it was just a phrase not even always a verse maybe part of a verse but a phrase um like one of my big ones was no fuss trust because god there is a verse that says don't fuss you know don't you know and to just trust and i had to learn to trust him i think i had i think that was a big issue with me is learning to trust he's a good god he's not there to you know come down in me grace grace i read galatians the book of galatians Every day for a year not that not the whole book every day But I kept repeating it for at least a year because if you struggle with you know Legalism or any sort of OCD stuff relations is the perfect book for teaching you about grace and Don't go back to that old stuff. You know, it teaches you You know, this is this is a different life and you can you can take this life and that I could approach God the throne of grace and ask for grace during any, any time, you know, because that's, that's

36:08 what I needed to learn most about was grace and trust. And, and he built that up and me little by little, you know, it takes years. Maybe I'm stubborn or OCD is strong. I mean, I know that and I've heard other people too. And I mean, it's really strong. And whenever you give into it, it just makes those ruts deeper. So it kind of preserves itself. It keeps on going because you have to completely stop, cut off, you know, before it starts getting weaker. You feed it, it grows stronger. You know, and feeding it is in your thoughts, allowing it to stay in your thoughts or to perform compulsions and it's hard yeah so that the other the other part of grace when when we say grace in our family when we talk about grace we're like okay dad's having a grumpy day he's had a big week maybe that's when my kids were younger now they're grown but it's like let's give dad some grace here and you know not Take everything to heart that he says because he's just a big old grump this week or something like that and God's grace is this unmerited favor like giving us this love and and When we don't necessarily deserve it and

37:39 so God's coming back to God's grace Over and over I am NOT trying to plug my podcast, but I just did an episode. I just come last like so two episodes ago was about his grace is sufficient for us and In that I did talk about how some people take that God won't give you more than you can handle isn't in Scripture what he actually says is when like you said when there's a temptation when you're being tempted to do something he does provide the way out just like you said and I just it's funny that you say it because I didn't realize that that was leading up to today's episode and That this was kind of the sequence of how things were gonna go and that you're bringing up things that I just Covered, but I think they're important for everyone's life You don't have to have OCD to know that his strength is made perfect in our weakness. Yep, and the fact that We can approach him and his grace When we're feeling weak when we're feeling weary when we're feeling down when we're confused we can approach God now the solution See this combination that she's talking about this solution to me. You're saying I had to take some actions I had to feed my faith I had to take I have to take the medication

39:13 and I'm trying to bounce it all out. You still talked about having people around you that Encourage you and people that you can trust so One of my overall arching messages every week is we can't do things on our own like we think we can sometimes and it takes courage to break out of secrecy it takes courage to Bring something out and now to some people depends on how people react like you tell them something about your life and You get judgment when you're thinking that was supposed to help me get relief Right, but this is a safe place. And so you're not being judged at all The words that you're saying I think will encourage people so so much Do you have any other thoughts any things you like to talk about today that we haven't covered to share with listeners? Something more recently that God gave me that helped a lot was and I don't know why that portion of scripture never was it never made much of an impact on me before but just this year the whole armor of God became huge to me. I mean that is supernatural armor and I love the part about the helmet of salvation because you know my brain is like the thing that's like And so the helmet of salvation, I just love that picture. And I

40:46 often, often pray on the armor of God, the belt of truth, the pick up the sword of the spirit. But the helmet of salvation was very meaningful to me one day in my quiet time. And it just, it made a big difference. So it's like, God will spur. different years, different things. It was like this long journey of different things I could do and strategies and ways that he was there for me. But grace and being still learning to listen. I'm an introverted person anyway, so I can easily sit and just listen, you know, for God and, you know, in my quiet time. I can do that for a long time. It's easy for me. and I'm glad because he that's how I learned to listen to his voice and to trust that voice you know because I would see oh yeah okay he did what he said he was gonna do and you know when he directed me that way yeah it worked out and everything and so listening listening for the Holy Spirit is so huge I think you know but You know a lot of verses I think OCD is a stronghold, you know I have come to see it as a stronghold over the last two years maybe and I wrote a devotional on That you know about a three -week devotional.

42:19 It's not published or anything It's only been finished since I went to a writers Christian writers conference at the end of May and I had to have it done by then but Yeah, so I just lost my train of thought It's all good So anyway, yeah, oh that it's a stronghold and a lot of the the Devotionals are about that and I start with like a poem because I love I love to write poetry god. That was a gift that To me many many years ago, and that's my favorite things to do and I talk about both secular helps and then I'll have a section for biblical help and then a prayer at the end of every one and so you know I I would love to give you my email or for you to put that in the links or whatever you call it that people will contact me if they want the article that I wrote I wrote an article about OCD that goes over causes and symptoms and helps biblical helps and secular helps and I would love to share it all I want to do is to help people with it Christians especially but you know because it's brutal it's brutal and I want to help people um but could I if we're getting close to the end oh um a good resource um is the International OCD Foundation okay you know

43:51 if people are looking for Therapists doctors are just information about OCD. It's I International OCDF They have everything just everything NAMI is a good resource NAMI, but they deal with other things too. Not just OCD, you know, but generalized anxiety depression So both of those are really good resources So But anyway I thought, could I read one of the poems at the end? Of course. And we might not even be to the end yet because. Oh, OK. I can't tell. So but I wanted to make sure that I, you know, I haven't done this before on a website. Of course, this is only I mean, on a podcast is only my third one. I'm new at this. But I think I would like to today. I would love that. And that's super exciting. That might be how we we do end. I wanted to say to you or ask you I should say can you help us to maybe get into your mind or get into your your thoughts about on the daily now what does it look like now you you've shared over your life and some things like Paul in scripture had this thorn in his side he called it you know that it just he prayed for it and he learned in other parts

45:22 of scripture that he needed to be content no matter what his situation was and as I've said several times I live life wearing leg braces with a physical disability and I don't dwell on that but it does have its limitations I found ways in my physical world to move around and save my back from pain for example uh because i address mental health and others i've struggled with mental health issues you know i have had i have angry issues i don't know about clinical diagnoses but that doesn't even matter so i'm not trying to act like my thought life is pristine and you know i never have any concerns or worries i work on my mental health the time and I just want to get a picture of how you say you're retired from being a teacher you're retired now and I know you're active because you actively have been on the podcast and you're doing things but what does your days look like now where you know you've learned to navigate your faith over these years you you are on the medication what does your days look like are they filled with OCD struggles, the real talk is I'm not looking for a specific answer. I'm just wanting to know what does the days look like? Um, you know, I have a pretty kind of easy mellow life now. You know,

46:56 I mean, do I still have the fears sometimes? Yes, I have the intrusive thoughts. Yes, but God has taught me so much about ways to to handle it that it's It's not that it's a non -issue because it's there and the mental health field they say it's a lifetime Diagnosis OCD, you know that you learn to manage it. You don't get rid of it. Yeah And as you go through particular stresses in your life, it can pick up the pace and stuff But my life is is not filled with stressors now. It's pretty mellow and so Yeah, when I have a thought I ask for the way out I ask for you know, go to the throne of grace and ask for grace and mercy call out to God when those triggers happen and then they Pretty much usually go away either immediately or sometimes it can catch me and I can be in it for about I Don't know 45 minutes to an hour before God seems to then come in and So it's not always instantaneous when I pray, but it it's usually pretty soon and You know if I'm trying to get to sleep and this is happening He'll give me a way out like something to say usually like I said like, you know No fuss trust or just whatever and I just repeat it to myself and repeat it to myself and sometimes in the beginning I used to think this isn't working and then I'd wake up the next morning.

48:29 It was like oh you don't realize it or other thoughts start coming in just normal daily everyday thoughts just start to take over you know and it's just it's it's miraculous to see his hand but he is miraculous God every day in an every way you know and so yeah I mean I I'm pretty good now I'm pretty good place but but I can't say it's gone it probably never will be you know, I have to watch it. But just knowing God's there and he's faithful and I can look in the past, you know, that he's been faithful. So he's going to continue to be faithful and not, you know, worry about the future like I used to. Yeah.

49:20 Well, those are your questions. Yeah, those are some good words. I really appreciate that. It's so amazing. I know we're talking about OCD. But I'm just able to apply this to so many things. It's not just about your diagnosis. And so it's very uplifting because that's the part about God. We've lived separate lives, but we experience His grace in similar ways and how we can face our struggles and come back to Him. I also was thinking earlier when you were talking, the thought of sinning and actual sinning are two different things. The fact that maybe I offended this person, maybe this happened, maybe that's going on, maybe this, and not that you don't know the difference, but what I want to say to people is the temptations that we have and even even maybe acting on your compulsions, I'm not trying to clarify that if you give into it, you're sinning, and if you don't, you're not. And that's, I don't think you're saying that either, but I want you to know that there's no condemnation for those in Christ. So when we are believers, when we feel condemned, that's coming from another place.

50:51 It's coming from our own thoughts, or it's coming from the devil. And then the fact is if we're thinking about this or that and we're not acting on this and that we sometimes we can feel so guilty about well I'm sinning I'm not doing it perfectly especially if you have that religiosity or you know trying to be overly overly scrupulous and so what we're trying to give you today is using God's grace it's his love is endless for us and his He can handle it. You know, when I tell my wife certain things and I might repeat it two, three, seven times, it's like, gotcha, Corey. Great. God can can handle it. I can go to him as many times as I need to. And he's not like, OK, can you can you stop with that? Now, as we all know, sometimes when we pray to God and we ask him for answers, it's it's like the go yeah let's do this yes i'm going to answer that prayer it's the no like that's you don't know the whole picture so i'm not going to answer it there or whoa like maybe i'll answer it but the whoa is on for now like it's not time quite yet for this to happen so i don't want people to get discouraged if because god isn't a genie in a bottle uh you you can't go to him and say god take this away from me and I don't want to

52:22 have to work with it, I don't want to have to suffer from it, I don't want to have to feel this and I prayed that and God didn't take it away. I think some of the most beautiful work comes out of our brokenness and some of that struggle that we go through can we go through it so we can help others in their time of need and so I believe that's this full circle moment and season in your life where you're helping others and so I sincerely appreciate your heart towards that. I'll tell you that much. And I also, unless there's something else that you want to say, I'm going to be in contact with you. I'll get the resources that you want me to share on the website. Or if you want me to put you out there, your email so people can call or not call them, email you and ask you questions.

53:10 That would be absolutely. It would be my honor and pleasure. That's that's it'll be joy to me to feel like I can answer a question or for someone that's maybe new to some of these struggles. Yeah, definitely. So the floor is yours. You can share whatever you want and I'm looking forward to it. Okay, I'm just gonna read one of the poems from one of the entries to the devotional. I don't know, I'm not sure why I picked this one, but Especially since I'm not very techy in the whole computer world, but this is called the OCD code. A malicious virus infects my brain, an opportunist feeding upon my deepest fears, a glutton never satisfied. It spreads and burrows, seeking to populate every corner of my mind.

54:03 My efforts at cracking it have been futile, for against its ageist mastermind and his arsenal of malware, I am undone. Yet I have a savior a security from evil one who paid the ransom for my mind He stands guard over me for immunity to this virus is more a process than a moment Wow, I love that I love that I'm gonna have to Somehow we'll make sure that we put a copyright notice on there but I work in the computer world for my day job, and I was like a tent maker like Paul was. I have a job, but then all my ministry stuff. And so yeah, that's beautiful. I really appreciate that. And that speaks to me. To wrap up and make sure I'm telling my listeners what I want them to know and where to go. First of all, you can go to my website, mindandfaithmatters .com, and there's a, even if you do it on your phone or your computer, there's a yellow circle with a black microphone. There you can leave a voice message if you don't feel like typing a contact form. And you can share with us if you have any questions for Karen or questions for me. There's also going to be a companion

55:33 resource guide for episode I think this is going to be episode 24. I just want to thank my listeners for the support and I also want to let people know that if they need anything from any more answers from you we will share your email address if you're listening to this episode and you know someone who struggles in their thought life, or someone who has OCD, or someone that just needs encouragement about God's grace, or someone that loves poetry. It doesn't matter. Share the episode. We'd love to get the word out, and we'd love to honor God by sharing this story. Karen, thanks so much for joining me today. You have a blessed week, okay? Thank you. Alright, I'm going to tell everyone goodbye until next time.

56:28 Have a good week and God bless.